Inside Mayvin’s Work with the British Heart Foundation

Transcript

Sarah Fraser  0:01  

Welcome to Mayvin Podcast, where we have Julie and Kerry from the British Heart Foundation. Welcome and thank you very much for joining us.

 

Kerry Smith  0:13  

Oh, we're pleased to be here.

 

Sarah Fraser  0:13  

Do you want to say something about the need for the programme or the kind of drive to find something new and different?

 

Kerry Smith  0:23  

We needed to look for something that was going to be a little bit more sophisticated than a skills based programme, because all that we've just been talking about there, you know, this is, this is complex. This isn't, you know, it's multi dimensional. It's hard to pin down, and a lot of it is behavior as well as competence and capability. So, you know, we were looking for something a bit more sophisticated, and we've done previous development programmes for our leaders before that were much more traditional by nature. Wouldn't you say, Julie,

 

Julie Jones  1:01  

yeah, definitely. But I think it was also reflective of where we were as an organisation. I think, you know, as kind of the the sort of organisations became more mature over the last few years, or different, different in the way that we worked, and, you know, different approaches, I think it started to kind of shift the the the needs of the leadership community as well. So, and I think, you know, we've talked about the pandemic, but that really kind of started to kind of sort of flex the muscles in our in our leadership community in a different way, I guess. So, you started to see a different need there.

 

Speaker 1  1:34  

That need for agile, and that need for a bit more connection, and that need for sort of turning really, turning up authentically.

 

Julie Jones  1:40  

Absolutely yeah.

 

Speaker 1  1:42  

I'm curious to know, and we've talked about this a bit previously, but why? Why Mayvin, like, when we then met and we started exploring some ideas, and it was quite a gradual process, I think I would say, of coming together and sort of thing, actually, how could we do this? But, but, yeah, what I don't know, piqued your interest, I suppose, as we started the conversations. 

 

Julie Jones  2:06  

I mean, some of the things that we wanted to do as Kerry kind of already alluded to. We wanted to do something different. You know, we weren't looking for a more traditional programme. We did want to kind of just, you know, do something a bit more unique, a bit more innovative, a bit more sort of embedded in cultural change as well. So we weren't looking for a programme to develop managers and leaders in a particular way. We were looking to actually shift the culture of the organisation. So we wanted something a lot more deep rooted, I think, in what we were trying to achieve. Yeah, I think the the approach that Mayvin came with was was very much kind of using and working with the challenges of the organisation. So you actually saw a shift while you were kind of going through the programme and and also, I think that it reflected what the change we were trying to make. So we were trying to create a leadership community that was comfortable with ambiguity, and the programme wasn't so set out that we knew exactly what was coming. It was kind of the programme fed the programme, if you like. So as it as it emerged, we started to kind of shape it. It was challenging, but it was really exciting, and it really kind of reflected, you know, the change we were trying to create as well. So we wanted the programme to feel, or people on the programme to feel the change that we were trying to achieve, I think so, and experience it and it that wasn't always comfortable for people, but it was very much an important part of the experience we wanted to create. So it was, so again, we talk about authenticity as well. I think it was, it was about the programme being authentic to what we were trying to achieve. 

 

Sarah Fraser  3:43  

It definitely had that sense of double duty. We were really working within ambiguity as we were developing, designing the programe. Just that sense of us working in partnership with you. We had to really work together. We weren't coming to you with here's a fully formed programme, and this is what we think you should do. We were in the room together, working it out and working out, how do we bring the whole leadership community with us on this journey as well. 

 

Kerry Smith  4:13  

Thats what I was gonna say, quite scary, actually. Because you know, when you talk to partners that are going to work with you on a leadership programme. You kind of want to see a road map. You want to see a kind of model. This is what you're going to go these number of workshops. And, you know, then we'll have some action learning, and then we'll have a bit of development and valuation. So I say, you know, got all of that going on, actually, we developed this with you, and I think that's what so back to your question. That is what attracted us to you as well, because we could see that you would co create something with us, and we didn't want to just, you know, buy, if you like, an off the shelf, mapped out model that regardless of whether it suited us, we would need to put people through. There was a comfort in that, as I say, yes, but actually, we were looking for something, as Julie says, you know, more more sophisticated, more tailored to what we were looking for, and something that was going to help us to embrace, you know, the change that we needed. So it wasn't just a leadership development programme we're looking for. We were looking for support to enable the organisation to build more change resilience. So how can we manage and lead change? And I think the other thing to say about yourselves as well is the fact that whilst you, you know, came to us with that kind of experience of co-creating and doing something different, you also came from a solid base of knowledge and research, and, you know, academic rigor actually, as well as some practical tactical experience. So we need, because we've described, you know, the BHF being a very kind of broad ranging organisation with lots of different disciplines and types of roles, we needed to tick all the boxes with those. We needed a partner that would work with us, that had the breadth of commerciality, working with retail, working with our fundraisers, working with our marketeers, through to the, you know, solid academic background that would appeal to our academics and, you know, our researchers and yeah, so we needed a partner that had that breadth and scope, that could understand us as well and come with that level of rigor. 

 

Yeah and that's, that's always a balance to find, because Mayvin is sometimes perceived as quite has quite an academic background and academic basis, and yet, in partnership with organisations, that's, that's like the kind of, the grounding that underpins, the underpinning a way of working, yeah, and it's, it's something we, we can always come back to, but it's not what goes into the room, in the conversation, yes, which are at that, that real personal and individual level and that's what I loved about the work that we did together in developing the programme. It was really creative, it felt there were some moments which felt tricky, but we were really working with what was coming up in the groups, what was needed from the organisation, for the organisation at the time, you know? What does CHF need now? What is it grappling with? You know, what? What are leaders finding challenging. And I remember being in the room at the first big event. We did the big community event and having 120 people in the room and raising, you know, I think it came to six key issues that, you know, complex, what we call wicked problems, that everyone was sort of homing in on. And the the conversations around those and the energy in the room on that day was just brilliant. It really then that that kind of created the threads, which then fed the conversations and the inquiry going through the rest of the programme, and just that was, that was a really exciting moment. 

 

Julie Jones  6:43  

Yeah it was particularly exciting, I think, because, you know, we talked about the kind of disconnect that had been surfacing. It was the first time that leadership community had been together,  probably about three years, I guess,

 

Yeah, so I think the energy was very palpable in the room, partly because, you know, you could see those connections reforming. And, you know, really, you know, people enjoying that in person experience as well, which I think has also, you know, cemented our approach to kind of how we want to bring people together in in person as opposed to just virtually, you know, because that is something we're navigating as many organisations,

 

Sarah Fraser  8:57  

yes, and that what's the purpose of bringing people together and to do that creative but challenging work where you're grappling with some of the most difficult problems. But it brings me to one of the things that I think was a thread throughout the whole programme, which is one of your values around being brave. We talked, we've talked about that a lot, but it was, it was a really brave programme, you know. Both to sort of, you know, bring people with you in the programme, but also to to, you know, develop a programme around leadership, which was being sort of designed partly on as as we were responsively,

 

Kerry Smith  9:33  

Completely agree. I think the whole nature of the programme was brave the way we co created it. As I say, to the scary waters, we're not having anything laid out for us, but also then the questions we are we posed challenging questions we knew our chief exec knew there were things that we were not facing into. There were unanswered questions as an organisation that. We, you know, arguably, you know, I didn't have the time for facing into or weren't brave enough to face into, you know, either way, we needed to start looking at them and that event that you've just described was a great way to kind of surface. What were the things most on people's mind? We did lots of kind of mind mapping, didn't I remember the charts around huge sheets on the wall. And it was really telling, because people just it didn't. Nobody was assigned to the comments. Was just put it up, make sure it's up. And there was a lot in there, and it started to distill, what was you referred to.

 

Sarah Fraser  10:39  

The theme so clearly came out, it wasn't difficult to draw them out on the day.

 

Kerry Smith  10:43  

It was really good. And they became known as our wiked problems. And we love that, you know, because it, you know, it shows that we were prepared to face into the gnarly sort of problems that people tend to not face into because they just don't. They've no obvious solution to them, so it's hard to face into them. And when you do that at scale, which we did with all our senior leaders together, it becomes even more of a kind of surface, wicked problem. So we loved that, and I think that then got got everybody excited and wanting to then help. And that's Julie's point about the reconnection that we needed to create. Suddenly there was a whole cohort of 100 and what? 130, yeah, yeah. 121-30 leaders who actually were being united by the shared commonality of these wicked problems and wanted to actually start to work together on the solution and play a part in it. And actually there was a real excitement towards that, wasn't there.

 

Sarah Fraser  11:47  

And even in starting the programme in that way, I thought it is interesting talking about because I think I see it in, you know, through some different lenses again. But even starting in that way, the bravery of starting, of starting a leadership programme, by saying we're going to start with the problems that you see in and the challenges your leadership challenges in the organisation. We're not starting with. Here's a vision of leadership that we know we can get to, and here's the idealized sort of future that we're going to get to. It's just like, let's start with the reality of what's here. Yeah, and but the responsibility is with you as the leadership community across the British Heart Foundation, yeah, to think about how, how might you move forward on this? Not solve lots of conversations we're not trying to solve. These are wicked problems that are not, not easily solvable. But how do you make progress on these? And that's quite confronting, I think, as part you know, on a on a programme like that, like, Oh, I'm not going to be given the answer here in any way. I'm not being promised to be developed in that sense, to get exactly where I need to go, but I am being given some tools and some ways of working with these really difficult challenges, I think, in a community,

 

Julie Jones  12:56  

And I think that also kind of set a tone in the programme, quite a respectful but empowering tone, where the the leadership community that were going through the programme were kind of challenged to be accountable for those problems, rather than necessarily have a have a fix for it, or be taught how to fix it, or anything. I think there was a respect that these were senior leaders that had brought their own experiences, brought their own knowledge, their own kind of attributes to it. But I think there was often that kind of mirror being held up when the when the wicked problems were surfacing, and all the challenges that was coming through, those conversations came up, it was almost like, Okay, so you've put that down. Now, let's mirror that back to you. What do you think we should do? How do you think we should take this and what are you going to do about this? Yeah, so it wasn't a case of like the problems were were put down and taken away for someone else to fix or to work through. I think it really kind of set that tone of empowering the people on the programme to be part of the solution, I guess, and work through that as well. So I think that was that was that said he came here for me on the programme. 

 

Kerry Smith  14:02  

But whats interesting about that is that's where the ambiguity came in. So here's a programme that wants to, you know, build our resilience for ambiguity. And by the very nature of the programme, we didn't we went into this not knowing what those wicked problems would be. We surfaced them as a group. We didn't have any solutions for them. So you're kind of putting something out there that becomes a problem for the organisation to resolve that we don't have any obvious, you know, solutions to, you know, that's not but guarantee, I don't know what is at scale. So, you know, kind of empowering, as Judy says, empowering people to start to think about, okay, you might be able to fix this. You can do something about it, or something with it, or start to put us in a takes in a direction. So, what might that look like? What might that be and so, so that kind of appreciative inquiry, almost, you know, kind of starting to ask ourselves some questions about. Or what if, and what could we do? And doing that as a group started to take us on to the next path. And I think what was interesting about the program itself is it, it where it where it ended, is not necessarily where we expected it to, if you sort of mean, because we needed to keep kind of changing adjustments. Yeah, lots of adjustments, you know, changing course as he went along, because we had to respond and react to the challenges, the wicked problems that emerged and what came out of that.

 

Julie Jones  15:30  

And it felt like the wicked problems that we we kind of lent into, or we identified early on in the programme almost became the vehicle for a deeper level of understanding about the culture of the organisation and the culture of leadership for us, and how that needed to shift. So we mentioned, mentioned the word empowerment here, and that that was something that came up through through the programme, which wasn't one of the kind of the topics that was surfaced at the beginning, that came through those topics, really, and it started to feel like the programme was starting to go a little bit deeper in terms of kind of what, what was beneath some of these, these challenges, or what would sort of support as to face into those more effectively, I think so. 

 

Sarah Fraser  16:11  

I wonder what you think about the the role that the learning squads, so these are the small groups that people worked in to really sort of get into what some of the issues, how, you know, how they were facing into some of these issues, but also, you know, their leadership practice. We often talk about practice, but you know how they show up as leaders in the context of those challenges and the things that we were discussing.

 

Julie Jones  16:39  

Well, I think, I think those are the, I think that was sometimes the thing that created that psychological safety, you know, that kind of started to kind of spread, I suppose, across the community, because it started in smaller pockets, you know, through the learning squads. And I think it then just, you know, developed and grew. So those relationships within the the those groups were formed, you know, and people were able to be quite vulnerable and be very open about the challenges they were facing, share that they had similar challenges, and the support they had from their colleagues on that as well. And I think that really made a difference. So we were looking at the kind of the intervention at a kind of individual, group and organisational level as well. So we kind of addressed it through different means. So, so I think they, they really helped to develop that. And I think also the the approach of kind of developing their own practice based learning question as well was a really good way of structuring that that puts their own personal development in the context of a bigger, sort of a wider challenge, I suppose, in wider context. 

 

Sarah Fraser  17:43  

And the practice based learning question is that that an approach that we use which asks individuals to identify, you know, what's their learning edge? for their leadership practice, and in service of what's, you know, in service of something, maybe change process is going on in the in their wider team, or in the organisation, and in the context of what's going on. So it's, yeah, works at the different levels, but really puts, puts people's development in the context of what's going in the organization and what they're, you know, change, or what they're trying to achieve.

 

Kerry Smith  17:56  

And I think the the kind of peer to peer nature of those learning squads really supported that connectivity, yeah, but also that kind of, you know, mutual challenge of each other, actually. And, you know, just as on a on a large scale, we looked at, you know, the wicked problems. There were really that little mini wicked problems that that, you know, individual leaders were sharing with each other and looking to kind of support each other on and I think that in itself, you know, develop that or flex that muscle of you know, you're not just a leader, you're also a developer. You know, you need to develop your yourself. You need to develop your help develop your peers. Yes, need to help develop the organization. So it kind of, you know, it played to that. And we've had such great feedback about how the learning squads went down. Some learning squads are so connected that they meet themselves without any further facilitation. Is actually they still exist, and they still give it to lots. And I still, I still see people coming to the office of giving it to the hugs. And I think, how did they know each other? How did they know each other? And they say it starts the country, even, yeah, so, you know, and they will be so, you know, so connected. There feels so, such a camaraderie between them. And it's nice, because I know that they support each other with the challenge, everyday challenges. So it is that kind of my situational leadership, isn't it? Is kind of, you know, let's look at challenges we're genuinely facing. And I think that's what's been quite unique about the program, actually, because it's, it's rather than, you know, Julie and I have been in learning and development for many years, and. And often it's about, you know, what? How much of that new skill or development have you transferred into into your job? How much have you taken away from that and you're applying? You didn't have to think about that so much because it was all rooted in your job. The

 

Sarah Fraser  20:14  

reality people exactly, I was gonna ask, like, what's your sense of, you know, a good few months on from the end the program, official program closing, what was your sense of like the shifts that you still notice, or the kind of journey that you can still feel like the leadership community is on, or like the broader, wider organisation?

 

Julie Jones  20:36  

So I think there's a number of things. I think we can say, we've, we've noticed a shift on, I mean, we have obviously kind of done some more data collection in terms of what the shifts are, you know, from a percentage level. And so there's a, there's definitely more comfort leaning into ambiguity, which was obviously one of

 

Sarah Fraser  20:53  

the main biggest leaps

 

Julie Jones  20:57  

36% increase, or something, in terms of people's confidence around that which was, which was massive, I think also people's sense of awareness of their own development was another kind of really significant leap. So in terms of reflection on their own leadership journey and their own leadership kind of sort of growth, I suppose you know which I think continues. And I think that was one of the things that we were very conscious of with the programme is that it wasn't a program which had a beginning and an end, and that's it. It was actually this was an ongoing journey and and that's something that I think we have started to notice more. So the practices that we embedded in the programme are continuing. So some of the kind of activities even down to kind of the tools and techniques that we use in some of the sessions. You know, leaders are picking those up and using those more the conversations that we're having, particularly, you know, in the topic around empowerment, for example, continue and they grow, and they kind of develop, and they kind of become more sophisticated and more deep in terms of the shift that we're starting to see. And I think just building, what Kerry was saying is those connections we're seeing a lot more of those. You know, very visibly as well, in the in the in the offices that we we see, but also just across that, across the conversations that we're noticing.

 

Sarah Fraser  22:12  

I feel like we should mention the awards, congratulations to you all, and you know, it's been brilliant to be part of it. But do you want to mention what what they are and what might be, what were on the cards for?

 

Julie Jones  22:31  

Yeah. So, so we're at, we've been nominated for two business culture awards, so one for future workplaces readiness, yeah. And interesting, what we just talked about, best NGO, not for profit organization, for business culture as well. So so we'll find out, kind of mid November, what the outcome of that is. But I think even just the just the kind of recognition of of the kind of work that's gone into that is is really rewarding in itself. I think so we're really excited by that.

 

Sarah Fraser  23:02  

I feel like we should mention again, Ash Thomas, and, you know, put all of himself into this programme. 

 

Kerry Smith  23:10  

couldn't have done it without Ashley's been absolutely awesome,

 

Speaker 1  23:14  

and he was very much, very much part of the team, yeah, and made it happen. Yeah. He

 

Julie Jones  23:19  

put his heart and soul into this, I think, and it really, really shone through, I think. So he's so

 

Speaker 1  23:25  

nice awards that's, he's definitely in there. Oh,

 

Julie Jones  23:28  

he'll be there. He'll be there.

 

Speaker 1  23:32  

So just thinking in closing, if, if there were other teams like yours in whether it's not for profit, or whether, you know, public sector, private, but they're kind of thinking actually, how do we, how do we create that shift in our leadership team? What? What? What kind of advice? Or maybe not advice that sounds a bit heavy, but what insight would you give them from this experience over the last couple of years? What would you encourage them to question or look at having gone through, you know, the program, or this process change process that Bucha Foundation has just been through?

 

Kerry Smith  24:11  

Well, I would say, Be brief, yeah, yeah, because it's, as I say, you know, it's easy to so many different leadership development programs available market, and it's easy to go with what you know. But actually, I think you know that co creation having a partner that you can work with that's going to listen to you take, you know, taking where you're at as an organization, and help you to challenge you as well, and help you to think about what you need going forwards. And CO creating that with you is really, you know, the important about that. And you know, keeping the faith as Julie, you

 

Julie Jones  24:48  

just stole my line.

 

Kerry Smith  24:51  

You say it, Julie,

 

Julie Jones  24:54  

get it printed on a t shirt. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I think it's definitely about having that curiosity and being comfortable with the uncomfortable. I think, you know, I think that's, that's something that, you know, we embedded through the programme, and it's something we had, we challenged ourselves with as well. So, yeah, you really did. Yeah, so and keep the faith.

 

Kerry Smith  25:24  

Okay, match your T shirts.

 

Julie Jones  25:39  

Can I ask you a question? So, I mean, obviously, we've been on this journey together, haven't we, you know, and we've, we've learned through the process ourselves, you know, we've, you know, been challenged through it. The the leaders have all learned and had their own individual learning journeys through that. I'm just curious, did did you, Mayvin, have the similar kind of experience, and what would you have say you've learned through working with us.

 

Sarah Fraser  26:01  

I mean, absolutely yes, it was. It was a brilliant, brilliantly different programme for us as well. I mean, we do lots around practice based learning and using action learning approach approaches and using inquiry. But what was different about being able to with you guys and British up and ocean overall was really being able to partner and do the co creation together. We you can't, not every organisation is ready to do that. So it's, it's kind of, how much containment and how much ambiguity can you work with when you're partnering with an organization, and what I really learned in that, in that process of working with you, was to work with a greater level of ambiguity, actually, and that ability to be creative as we went and and more responsive and it, and that was, it was more challenging in some ways, but I think the program was richer as a you know, I do think the program was richer as a result, but there was some learning about creating just enough containment. Yes. So that point that we talked about around getting to that halfway point in the programme, just thinking actually a bit more containment is needed. We need to tell the story and give a clear sense of the journey we've been on so far and where we're going to Yeah, and that sense of Yes, keep the faith, but you need to give enough containment to help people keep the faith as you go through you do so it was yeah, getting that balance right. I think there's some, some learning in there, but we did it. We did it together. But there was a bit, there was the adjustments that went, Yeah, to get that right, I think, yeah, great, good question.

 

 

Sarah Fraser  27:50  

Thank you. Thank you. That's been a great. It feels slightly like going back in time. Really good to go back over it and feel positive, warm and fasci Yeah, but thank you for all the work you put in to the program and and for the podcast today.

 

Kerry Smith  28:07  

Thank you. Thank you very much.