In this episode, Tony is joined by our principal consultant, Ash Thomas. Ash asked our Tony, how do you talk about what OD is, and why do you think OD is needed in the world at the moment, and what do you think you've brought to the world of OD?
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Claire Newell 00:09
Hello and a warm welcome to the Mayvin podcast. This episode is part of a special, new mini series called Conversations with Tony. Our lovely director, Tony Nicholls has decided to stop working from the end of March 2025 he still finds it hard to use the R word, so we decided to make the most of him these last few weeks that we have him and try to bottle his wisdom and experience, slash milk him for content before he goes. We will be releasing one of these short 10 minute episodes every week for the next eight weeks, which will take us up to his last week with us. Each episode will focus on a different topic, a different element of his time at Mayvin or his career at large. There might be questions that we've always wanted to ask, or topics that feel pertinent at such a time of reflection. Please do feel free to get in touch with us or Tony directly, if you'd like to pass on any well wishes for his R word. In today's episode, Tony is joined by our principal consultant, Ash Thomas. Ash asked our Tony, how do you talk about what OD is, and why do you think OD is needed in the world at the moment, and what do you think you've brought to the world of OD? To hear his answers, stay tuned. Thanks.
Ash Thomas 01:26
Well, I want to start by saying I'm really going to miss you. I have loved working with you, and one of the things I really most appreciated is the way that you can clarify things that are sometimes a bit abstract or a bit amorphous in the world of OD, and I've really appreciated your skill in doing that, and that's something I will really miss, but I'm desperate to keep going on your behalf, so that's going to be the legacy that you give me. So I'll be thinking about you every time I try and decode the world of organizational development. In that spirit. Tony, how do you talk about what OD is? What's your, what's your, what's your little theory of OD? Lovely. So thinking about the world as it is, why do you think OD is needed at the moment? What's it offering the world?
Tony Nicholls 02:12
Well, the first thing I'll say is that it changes every time I say it. So I think, I think that's an important point is to understand that we never quite have things nailed down in life and in work and in OD so we're constantly revisiting what we think about things and how I mean we make sense of things. But I think if I were to describe the process we go through, whether it be a program that we're developing some od capability or some leadership capability, or whether it's a team event that we're running, or whether it's a webinar that we're just running on a particular subject. First thing for me is that OD is about helping people just slow down, find a physical space where they can literally stop doing work and stop doing things. I think it's really important, and that later on, becomes a mindset that they can adopt, that they can literally slow down in their mind whilst they're still busy doing work. But that's a different subject, but let's slow them down. And I think for all the for all the science we talk about, and all the models and tools and great techniques we have, in essence, we do something, we create space as they slow down, for them to do something that's really natural for human beings to do, which is to start to reflect on who they are, why they're there, what they're doing, how they're doing it, what's working well, what's working less well, and to make sense of of what's going on for them, their context, their shifting, their ever shifting context, to help them make sense of, who am I? What's going on, what do I need to do next? How might I look after myself? Am I to develop my capabilities? So that for me, comes naturally to human beings. You put them together and slow them down. They start to do that, and often will help them do that together with others. And that's where the beauty really comes in when they start to do that together. Where I think the OD really comes in is the is us, the presence we bring. And I think we bring a presence that very quickly enables psychological safety and allows people to feel safe, to be to demonstrate humility and also vulnerability, and they're essential for good quality reflecting and sense making and looking at what's not working, but also how they can, how we can develop our capabilities and do what you know, lean into the difficult things and and that in particular, there was a there was a conversation I had with some associate consultants probably three or four years ago now, and we were talking about that very point. How is it that very quickly we can work, start working with a group of people, and literally with minutes, start to see quite deep levels of vulnerability and humility being demonstrated. And long story short, we ended up with, well, we thought we spent quite a bit of time talking about what we thought we might bring into the room, which was, you know, clever techniques and facilitation and and questions we might ask. So all the things we bring in in our toolkit, and actually we we, we came to the conclusion that they were less important than what we left behind, what we didn't bring into the room. So what we talked about was the absence of competition and the absence of hierarchy or power plays or agendas. We bring just ourselves and our OD kit bag and our facilitator kit bag, but we leave all that, rest of the stuff outside, and unfortunately in the world of work, most of that stuff is in the room with with other people. So therefore, by definition, they're going to be less open to things. So So I think our presence as OD practitioners is hugely important. So we slow people down, we start to help them do what comes naturally, which is about reflecting and making sense of their world. We do that through being a presence that creates psychological safety quite quickly. We do have models and tools if they're needed. We've got processes, clever techniques, models and frameworks that, you know, we got loads of those, some of them really good quality work that only reside within the world of OD. And I think come come from a magic blending of things like the complexity sciences, behavioral sciences, broader social sciences, philosophy, etc. They all come together, but we only use them if they're needed. We use them judiciously. We don't use them for the sake of it. And through all that process, so often, I see people leaving a conversation with us. Their shoulders are lower, their motivation is increased. They've got increased insight into their context and their place in it and what they need to do. And I think we actually leave them recognizing the wisdom that was already there in them. They start to rediscover their agency and rediscover their confidence. And sometimes we put a bit of extra bit in there as well. We'll give them a little bit of extra stuff, an extra model, an extra tool or an insight. And that, for me is, I think, what we do, in essence. I go back to the beginning. Slow down. People are working so fast, so hard. Post Brexit, post COVID, post well not post in the middle of cost of living crisis, the geopolitical situation that we've got. Life's hard, and organizations are working very hard to do more and more and more and to keep adapting. And so few of them are actually not doing things, stopping things. Everything's getting piled on top. So people are working very hard, very fast. And I think we just in order for them to make sense of their world better and for them to make better quality decisions. I think OD is, is more than ever needed to help them slow down and make sense of their worlds better, make better decisions, become wiser. And you know, the phrase we use, 'go slow now, to go fast later' is absolutely, I think, an apt statement. Just take a little bit more time to think through what you're doing. And you will, you'll, you'll probably get a bit different result, which will help which will help enable you to go faster.
Ash Thomas 08:44
Lovely. And what do you think you've brought to the world of OD in your presence?
Tony Nicholls 08:50
Oh, crikey, I think, I think a bit of straight talking sometimes, a bit of challenge. You know, you know me with, you know, as a group of consultants, you'll take the mickey out of me and talk to me about manifesting things and and woo, woo. And I am so not into woo, woo manifesting. I'm a man of science, a man of engineering, and and like to think about human condition in that way, it's, it's, it's hugely complex and in some ways unknowable. That doesn't mean to say it's all woo, woo. It's, you know, it's, it's got reason behind it. And that excites me, that that really, you know, I'm, I'm in awe of the human condition and the way that we we have evolved, and the way that we work together and live together and be together without all of us killing ourselves, all each other all the time. So that fascinates me. And I think, I think I bring a straightness, you know. So this whole decoding the language of OD, demystifying. OD, you. Making it more accessible. I think is something that I'm, you know, I think I've been passionate about
Ash Thomas 10:06
Hope that I can continue that on your behalf. I think one thing I'd really like to say to you is that I think you bring a really restoring presence. So as you're talking about the nature of OD and what you think it does, I think it might reflect something about the fact that conversations with you and being around you feels restoring and opens up new possibilities for people to think about themselves and how they are and how they're being and I've experienced that, and that's been a really great gift that you've offered to me, and I imagine lots and lots and lots of other people who will really, really treasure that and have appreciated it over the years. So, so I'm really annoyed at you for not being here actually.
Tony Nicholls 10:57
Well, thank you. Thank you for the first statement.
Ash Thomas 10:59
Slightly mad about that.
Tony Nicholls 11:01
Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, you again in different words, described good OD practice. I think you know, it's restorative, it's, it's, it supports people finding what is already there, which is their inner wisdom and capability. They just, you know, we all lose sight of that from time to time in the madness that is, that is life and world, the world of work. So thank you, Ash, it's been great. You know, working with you.
Ash Thomas 11:25
Thank you Tony. It's been brilliant working with you. Okay, take care
Tony Nicholls 11:29
Bye, for now.
Claire Newell 11:31
Thank you so much for listening to us today, and we hope to see you next time. Take care bye bye.