A Leap of Faith - Doing Leadership Development Differently with Hymans Robertson

In this podcast we discuss our collaborative partnership with Hymans Robertson, where we’re helping leaders at all levels in the firm figure out their own ways to work well in complexity. 

Our very own Ash Thomas has teamed up with the progressive and purpose-led Parul Kaushal to give Hymans colleagues the safe space to see themselves and their challenges more clearly. 

The 'Leader In Me' programme encourages a mindset of experimentation, supports greater ownership of personal learning and growth, and helps turn collective insight into real-world change through action learning.

 

 

Transcript

Ash Thomas  00:00

Welcome to the Mayvin Podcast. I'm here with Parul Kaushal from Hymans Robertson. We're gonna be talking about taking leaps of faith in learning and what it means to do learning differently. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you and who you are, a little bit about Hymans and kind of why we're sat here together. What's the origin of our story?

 

Parul Kaushal  00:24

Yeah, so Hymans Robertson is a independent partnership, and we provide better financial futures to millions of people, and we do this through providing services, and that's in pensions, investment and insurance, and I work in the learning and development team, and I lead the facilitation team, and that involves us designing and delivering behavioural training programmes, including leadership development, which is part of the leadership academy that we've rolled out.

 

Ash Thomas  01:00

Tell us the story about how we met and kind of what, what brought us together initially, and what was the challenge at Hymans that you were seeking support around?

 

Parul Kaushal  01:12

Yeah, so it feels like we've known each other for years, but I was thinking about this the other day. It's just been over one year.

 

Ash Thomas  01:21

It's almost the year that we really got talking about doing some work together.

 

Parul Kaushal  01:24

Yeah. So we met at an annual Learning and Development Conference, and you were running a seminar on powering up psychological safety. And the reason you really stood out for me was the way in which you created this really warm, safe space for all of us to be curious to think about things. You created this sort of inclusive climate in your style, which I found very unique, compared to others where there's a little bit more of lecturing, probably. And what I really liked was, at the end, when I approached you at the seminar, and I thought, be great in terms of you and Mayvin providing a service for helping us with one of our leadership development programmes, was you actually said that sounds really interesting. Would love to help, but let's go for a coffee and get to know each other first. And I thought that was so refreshingly different, because you weren't salesy. You were more about let's connect. Let's find out a little bit more, and then we'll take it from there. So just a different way of building a connection and a relationship and getting to know each other

 

Ash Thomas  02:48

The start of a partnership. 

 

Parul Kaushal  02:49

Exactly, yeah. 

 

Ash Thomas  02:51

And what I loved about you was your willingness to discover together, even in those early conversations. So it was, yes, you were looking for something. I was really intrigued about what you were doing.

 

Parul Kaushal  03:04

Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's what's so great. I think we were both open minded, curious. And I like your word around discovering, because I think that's when some really great creative ideas, thinking and design can happen. Didn't know it at the time when I met you, but that's what was refreshingly different about connecting with you.

 

Ash Thomas  03:29

So why don't you tell us a bit about the actual challenge around the Leadership Academy. So why don't you give give us a sense of what that was about, how the Leadership Academy came about and and just a sense of how we started to work around that,

 

Parul Kaushal  03:44

Yeah, so I think it always starts when it comes to learning and development for us at Hymans with what's the business context. So maybe, if I paint that landscape first, and essentially, COVID had hit and so as a result of that, as many organisations have done, we went into hybrid working so leaders, not always being physically in the same place as their team members. We also had quite a high number of new recruits at that time. And so a lot of new people joining our organisation as leaders, and not necessarily again, being in the office all the time surrounded by people. So how do you get a feel of what the values are, or the way we do things around here? It just becomes a little bit harder, doesn't it, when you're not all together at the same time every day, and we'd also had a slightly difference in the way that we structured our team. So we started to work more from a multidisciplinary team perspective. And so leaders were now responsible for groups of people in specialist areas that they may not necessarily be experts in, and were having to make decisions. So as a result of that environment, we recognised we needed to help our leadership population enhance skills through that their behaviours. And so that's how I kind of started with a blank sheet of paper, essentially with a Leadership Academy. And definitely one of the things I wanted people to feel like this is a this is a Hymans Robertson Leadership Programme. This gives us a real feel of values in culture here. And I also wanted them to feel like they could experiment with things as well. So I didn't want them to come in feeling like we're going to get all the answers, and then off we go and we just implement them, because you and I know it's when they do the deep, reflective thinking is when real insights happen and behavioural change happens. So definitely wanted the Leader in Me to be something where we encourage them to think deeply about their leadership style, what their strengths were, their challenges, and we also equipped them with some coaching tools, again, in the spirit of asking open ended questions of of their colleagues, to get them to also think so, passing that on

 

Ash Thomas  06:19

So people describe it as well, energising and exhausting and slightly experimental. Yeah, so in the context of a programme which is essentially one day of in person activity and then virtual action learning, what do you think? What are the ingredients that are getting people to do the real work of thinking about themselves in relation to their teams, in relation to the wider Hymans Robertson culture? What do you think is making a difference to how people are learning and how they're applying their learning? 

 

Parul Kaushal  06:55

I think one of the biggest differences is that we are not giving them the answers or the golden bullet, it's and you and I both are strong believers in this, but it's because we're both coaches. Our philosophy is around being able to enable others. So it's not about coming in here's here's a model, and you just go off and you sort of scientifically apply this. What's different this time is around getting them to do the hard work and the thinking. Now, how do we help them to do that? Yes, there are some some coaching that happens. There are some tools that we do share, some models. Of course there are, but there's a lot of space that we create, which, if I'm being honest, I really struggled with that initially, because when you and I were having the initial design conversations, I could feel my impatience of, yeah, but we need to tell them how to do that. We need to have a bit more structure and yeah. And you were sort of like, yes, and we need to create some reflective space, which means we will not be able to, you know, sort of have a script here, exact script.

 

Ash Thomas  08:22

And I think what I recall at the time, when we were doing our kind of early, you know, design conversations and and having some of those tussles around, well, how do we get to where you'd like to be with this work in a way which sits with your own aspirations, with Hymans values, and what Mayvin brings I think this question about how much space do we leave for people was a really, really important one, because I think in the original conversations, I was really getting a sense of and we were getting a sense of what you're looking for here is some kind of mindset shift towards helping people learn how to learn about themselves in ways which help them to learn about how they operate in their system, in their organisation, and maybe think about the things that they can change within themselves that would make a difference for them, for their team, for their clients, for others. And I think there was this recognition of we can do some deeper work in a relatively short space of time, if we give just enough content, and that might be around the authentic leadership model, that might be the coaching work that we're doing, and enough space for real, meaningful inquiry individually, in small groups, in, you know, the larger group because, and actually, it's really enhanced by the fact that we're working with everyone from partners through to relatively people who are relatively early in their career in one in one cohort. We've got a lovely mix of perspectives, questions, space for interrogation with each other, and I think that diversity of experience and perspective but rooted around who am I as a leader? How might I show up differently for me, for others, I feel like there's something quite magical that happens when we've got this diversity in the room. Because they're like, Oh, I didn't expect to be, you know, sat next to a partner, really inquiring into what's the challenge that you've got at the moment, and how might that be similar or different to my challenge? So that that space, that container, is kind of the space where people have ground to do work with each other in ways that they haven't experienced before. And I think that's partly your leap of faith was like, well, let's, let's try that and see what happens.

 

Parul Kaushal  10:47

I agree, and I think, I think if we think about how leaders often spend their time and we sort of step into a meeting, it's typically around outcomes, results, sort of tangible things. Very rarely do leaders have the opportunity to focus more on some of the emotional intelligence side of things. So how am I feeling in this situation? What am I noticing about how other people might be feeling or experiencing this, and we know that's really quite important, because we are emotional beings, so that all those sort of exercises that we've designed for them are there to create space for them to think more in that arena. So to create a bit of a balance between not just the outcomes, and I feel having come out of the Leader in Me, it's it. It's about investing in people, and then the outcomes will follow, which was a bit of a leap of faith for me, I have to say, but, but, yeah, we really indulged them in that, and we could see the impact of that when we had our action learning sets and they shared examples of what they had started to experiment with, and the impact that that had had. 

 

Ash Thomas  12:12

That's interesting. You just reminded me that at the beginning of the conversation you said, and correctly, you've got very clever people, very clever people at Hymans who might be used to learning in a in a particular way which, which often is about finding the right solution or finding the clearest possible answer, and this is maybe quite different for them. So this is, this is a slightly different paradigm, really. This is, this is less about being correct, more about discovery, exploration, experimentation. How do you think people have taken to that shift towards maybe a slightly more open and, yeah, experimental way of thinking about their learning? 

 

Parul Kaushal  12:58

I think it was, I think for some it was a bit hard. And I remember one colleague getting a bit impatient going, so hang on. So what's so, how do I do this? Just tell me how to do this. And and I can relate to that. You know, I'm quite a pragmatic person myself. And you were kind of like, hold on to that. Don't lose that. Go with it. Let's keep going with some of these reflection exercises, some of these models that we're introducing talk to each other, and by the end, I remember she said, wow, that's been so insightful, already some things have started to land for me, and I've got, I've started to formulate something that I might experiment with afterwards. I think, I think that is a good example of the journey sometimes people go through, and we, we hear the term growth mindset, which is about experimenting and then learning from these sorts of experiments. They don't always work out. They don't always go right. I think we have a lot of perfectionists. I'm one of those people. So when things don't go to plan, you become really self critical, but I'd like to think in our programme, what we say is go for it and we regroup if it doesn't work. Because I think that's the other dimension to this, is you're not alone, that you know, we've got a group of people who have different levels of experiences, but also expertise and different superpowers. So regroup, and then let's, let's work out together some other ways

 

Ash Thomas  14:47

Lovely. And I think people are, they're arriving with their own challenges. Yeah, they're arriving with not necessarily, you know, technical or logical problems. They're often bringing questions around how they relate to others. They might be they are these sort of more complex questions which don't have perfect solutions. So one of the shifts, I think, that we've noticed, is the letting go of the need for the perfect answer. So by the time we get to maybe the end of the first day, there is a sense of, Oh, I've gathered some collective wisdom. I'm starting to turn that into insight for myself. And then this question of, how might I experiment with this to have different outcomes for me and others? I feel like, if I could draw the arc of the day, whatever we do, whatever choices you and I make within the space that we're holding. What I think the shift is, is this sort of sense of, oh, collectively, we're learning together. I'm getting stuff from just these conversations with people who are across the organisation. My own challenge is sort of opened up and informed by these conversations. And now I feel like I've got some courage and some, I've got some something to work with which is about me in relation to my challenge, not trying to fix it, not trying to solve it. How can I work with my challenge in a way which is beneficial for me and the organisation? So I feel like almost, almost by reflection, I feel like that's the arc of the work that we're doing, and that's what I think is landing for people. Because there was a lovely quote from one of our delegates who said, what's really sticking with me is the fact that it's really grounded in my own experience. It's sticking because it's about me and about what I can do and my own agency to pursue different courses of action, to experiment. So I think that's, I think that's some of what it is, yeah. 

 

Parul Kaushal  16:50

And it goes back to authentic leadership, yeah, that's a great quote, because it shows that this is about being the best version of myself, yeah, rather than, here's a mould of what we think good leadership looks like. Fit into that, into that mould, and we know that that doesn't work so well. You know, you might get, you might get compliance, but you're not going to get commitment. So that's so important. And that's a Yeah, that's a great example of how it's landed with people

 

Ash Thomas  17:24

And with a really diverse group of people, yeah, as well. So I think we've touched on challenges, which are everything from, you know, delegation to needing to work with a really challenging client, through to questions around identity, yes. So the fact that we've got some space that allows for all of that range of difference, I think speaks volumes to the safety that we create and actually the thoughtfulness with which we're kind of offering people an opportunity to really examine, sometimes, stuff they haven't examined yet in their careers, whether that's at a senior level or a relatively junior level. It's that space which is giving them the opportunity to do some good work for themselves. So having taken, having taken this sort of leap of faith with us in working on the pathway, what's it been like partnering with us.

 

Parul Kaushal  18:21

Oh, it's been I've really enjoyed it. So I find, rather than kind of seeing it as you guys are, a training partner, I've seen it as a thought partner, actually, that we, we kind of openly share our reflections and ideas. And and I find that that that sort of Spark really helps us to come up with great ideas for the design of the programme. I found you've been really open minded in terms of some of the things that I've been sharing with you. And hopefully you found the same from from the other way too. I felt you've really listened to what our needs are and understood the context in which we're working, which is very much about, how can we help our colleagues, how can we how can we help our clients? I think, you know, I might have sparked off with an idea, we're going there, and then yours is another. But felt that we were really collaborative in that process. The other thing, I would say is feedback. So the fact that we both really value and pay attention to the feedback we get from the workshops, from the action learning sets and in and then keep evolving it that, to me, is really important if we expect our if we expect our colleagues to experiment and keep improving, we've the same rule applies to us, and I found that that Mayvin and and us have partnered really well in adopting that approach. If I was to ask you three words that describe your experience of partnering, yeah, with us. What would those three words be?

 

Ash Thomas  20:08

Collaborative, open, impactful

 

Parul Kaushal  20:15

Fantastic.

 

Ash Thomas  20:17

I think we've really paid attention so your point about the feedback is really important. We've really paid attention to what we sensed was working and maybe what needed adjusting. And I think the dynamic has been, let's just keep hold of what's really working. Keep shifting what maybe needs a bit more testing or needs a bit of evolving. And I think that iteration has been the spirit of the work that we've done, and I've really appreciated that hat's how we've been able to work together. 

 

Parul Kaushal  20:46

Yeah, I love that, and I also love your word impactful, because that makes me feel really proud to work with colleagues who, firstly, are open minded to it and are committed to experimenting and want to make a difference for their colleagues and clients. I think if, if it was like, Oh, this is really interesting, but nothing really changes like, wow, where's the sort of follow through? But it's great to hear you recognise that people at Hymans Robertson are really keen to make a difference. So yeah, music to my ears.

 

Ash Thomas  21:30

What impact do you think the programme is having on people? So we've got loads of evidence, and actually, we haven't really talked about it, what we've noticed, what we've heard. So do you want to just give us a sense of what is the impact that you think the work is having on people coming onto the programme and then Hymans?

 

Ash Thomas  21:48

How do you feel now about having taken this leap of faith, working with us and and doing something differently? How do you how do you see this sort of six months on?

 

Parul Kaushal  21:48

So I think it's having an impact at different levels. One is their own confidence, so just the fact that there's a peer to peer coaching approach that happens, and then you hear, Oh, you too are experiencing that challenge. You know, it's not just me. I think that gives people comfort and confidence and credit to them for being open and vulnerable about sharing what those challenges are. And then I think there's also something around them wanting to improve other people's performance. So whether that's the team that they're in, whether it's colleagues that they work in, in multi disciplinary teams on projects, I think they really what they're thinking about is, what do they need? What do they value? What motivates them, what drives them? How can I get the best out of them? And so these experiments help them to be able to do that and bring the best out of other people as well. And fundamentally, this is all driven by us, wanting people at Hymans to have the best job they'll ever have, enjoying our culture and feeling like it's collaborative, feeling like they're growing and it's also, then ultimately about if I feel that way, I'm going to deliver better for my clients, right? And that that shines through and we often get in our client feedback, how friendly and partnering and understanding, in addition to the great advice that we give, but I think both are equally important, not just the technical expertise, but also our consulting skills. So I think that all has a knock on effect in the way that they approach these interactions and building relationships with people.

 

Parul Kaushal  23:42

I see it as very positive and very worthwhile and a successful experiment. I kind of, I was thinking about this, and there was a part of this that was unknown, and it was that letting go to go, if we need to kind of move forward on something and get over that bar, we're gonna have to just just have faith. And so that, for me, was a leap of faith. Then I feel now that we've run four workshops, quite a few Action Learning Sets, read the feedback, it absolutely we've got over that, that high bar, and it was worth taking that leap of faith.

 

Ash Thomas  24:36

Very good. Well, I think we're probably at time. So I really want to say thank you for this conversation, for all the conversations that we've had, and for the leap of faith that brought us together initially and helps us to, sort of, you know, continue doing some work together as we speak. 

 

Parul Kaushal  24:58

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Really enjoyed it.

 

Ash Thomas  25:02

Thank you so much. 

 

Parul Kaushal  25:03

Thanks, Ash

 

Ash Thomas  25:04

Thanks Parul